Stephen Christie has been at the top of the Real Estate Industry for 30 years. Its always nice to see people who are willing to put forward rigorous argument and engage others charitably. Im really enjoying this. For forty years he has been a fixture in the firmament of the apologetic pantheon, lecturing worldwide and publishing popular books like The End of Reason and Jesus Among Other Gods. And so to say, who believed the exact same way that I believed? But in the infancy narrative, were just talking about the birth of the firstborn in accord with The Mosaic Law. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. But let me get to that point about death though. Unlike some of his competitors, who have made. Well, not necessarily. When Matthew 1:25 writes, Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to a son, the specific Greek words [foreign language 00:02:06] when translated until, is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a change in condition. In fact, Protestants believe in many doctrines that are not found in scripture like their 66 book cannon of scripture where that public revelation ended in the first century. So this next question is for you, Steve. The Protestant scholar, Ben Witherington says This figure is both the literal mother of the male child, Jesus, and also the female image of the people of God.. I had mentioned about the word all, pas, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. [These verses] cannot figure as crown witnesses for the view that the Old Testament canon in Jesus days was fixed and closed (The Blood from Abel to Zachariah). Can it be used in the case without contradicting scripture? And Steve has not ruled that out. And she doesnt mention sin in this part of Luke one. The Story of Reality: Apologist Greg Koukl Discusses His New Book. Just like that Scripture includes things within it that are not necessarily scientifically accurate, scriptures without error. I say this by way of concession, not of command. Its a good Greek translation. And if you look into church history, these dogmas were not all agreed upon. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. While scripturally affirming Jesus is the son of God, they contradict scripture by claiming that Jesus is Michael the archangel, because scripture affirms Michael is a created being while Jesus is the eternal deity. That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. Well done. So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? It sounds like you are using it for your view of Jesus in a very unique way. And by the way, hi, Jeff. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. How do we know that theyre brothers? One of these would be Psalm 69, where it says of the Messiah, I have become a stranger to my brethren, an alien to my mothers sons. The messianic Psalms are applied to Jesus, but not in literal ways. [Greek 00:53:10] in the Old Testament is described as a savior, but not as a savior from sin. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . Okay. And so moving from that, that if Jesus Christ did establish the church, if Im confident of that and in its teaching authority, then I can be confident in what the Pope teaches about Mary in regards to those two dogmas but I can especially have confidence knowing that what is taught does not contradict scripture. It was only four yards short of the all-time NFL record. Nice to have you. Both the Old and the New Testaments also use firstborn to indicate firstborn among other siblings, such as Esau being Isaacs firstborn and Ruben as Jacobs first born, meaning they were not firstborns out of their fathers wombs, considering men dont have wombs, but firstborn among their other children. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. So Steve would probably say that, Well, Jesus has sins, but there our sins, not his sins. Okay. The Protoevangelium of James does talk about Mary being very mature for her age, walking at an early age, for example, and being precocious. Since this dogma allows for her to have died before being taken up to heaven, it contradicts the purpose of a biblical assumption. When we talked about there being universal truths about sin, we both agreed on that. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. However, Paul cant be saying that every single person commits personal sins because the Bible itself contradicts this. Ravi Zacharias has long been recognized as one of the most respected of Christian apologists. Take your time there, Steve, getting yourself ready. on So before she could go into heaven and have a heavenly body, she had to be rid of them, and thats why the apostle Paul says that we were like Adam and we also, which includes Mary, we also are heavenly. But you will search in vain for Ammorites, Jebusites or Hittites. Psalm 132:8 says Arise, Lord, and come to your resting place, you and the ark of your might. Can you describe the ark?. Sponsored by SaltLending.com and Epic.Tech. Click the link in the description below to go through to the greatest Catholic prayer and meditation app on the planet. Hes referred to the son of Joseph in Johns gospel. Overview. And my focus was on the word, adelphi, which Trent really didnt focus on, on his opening statement. Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. Okay, Trent. I would like to demand that everybody hit that like button right now. Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. Jesus Christ did not inherit original sin, but he became sin which is why the father had to turn away from him. I dont know how you would feel. Posts about Steve Jobs written by Christian Apologist. However, prior to this debate, Trent and I had agreed not to talk about Mary being referred to it as the mother of God, because its not really an issue that we disagree on, as long as it is understood how it was originally meant to be a Christological title and not a specific title of Mary, such as being queen of heaven. Married in 1976, the couple attended churches of several denominations along with some non-denominational churches. No one ever says the gift of prophecy or divine revelation had returned after being absent for several centuries. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. Mary had this early body. First, ancient Jews kept their books in a series of scrolls and not in a single book, so its anachronistic to say this refers to the table contents in a book. A Real Ale Loving Scottish Crime Writer. Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. So they probably were aware of something very special about her at that time. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. So there was something sinful about Jesus? Trent, you have 10 minutes to cross examine Steve, whenever you begin. Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. So Mary being assumed into heaven, dying, which is the majority view among theologians, does not show that she had sin. Yeah, sure. But in his encyclical, [foreign language 00:20:13] Pope Pius the 12 said Mary is the new Eve who is free from all sin original or personal. Does the Bible say that Mary herself committed a personal sin or that she inherited original sin? Yep. Well start with you, Steve. and so this may not satisfy Trents answer and he might smirk a little bit about that, but Id say probably the first theologian to agree with me is the Apostle Paul. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Born Hence, if anyone shall dare to think otherwise, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment, that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith and that he has been separated from the unity of the church. If she was immaculately conceived, wouldnt she have known that she was the version from Isaiah 7:14? And I think one way that makes sense would be if Joseph had been previously married. Jesuss kin in Nazareth did not fully understand his status as the Messiah. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. Aleppo codex, and it places the book of Chronicles at the beginning of the Writings (or ketuvim) and not as the last book of the Hebrew bible. Yeah. . What is pure fiction cannot be used as factual evidences. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. And its talking about the opinion of the fathers of the most glorious Virgin being an unstable miracle of God and being the mother of God. And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. Thread info Bookmark this thread Trash this thread. We are going to move into a time 30 minutes of Q&A. So if Andrew is Jonahs son, too, because Andrew is the brother of Peter, then why cant James, the brother of Jesus, also be the son of Mary? And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. That rather, theres nothing in there to preclude people being assumed body and soul into heaven, including Mary. Finally, as H.G.L. I agree with what that person teaches. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. It is not considered inspired. For example, if the Bible taught that Mary gave birth to other children, that she committed a sin, or that she was not assumed into heaven, the dogmas would be falsified. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. It would be an evidence chip, if you will, for it that we have to balance with other evidences. [3] Christie was activated to play on July 7, 2007 against the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. There are a lot of great resources at catholic.com. Do you still have it? Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. And I would also address that Luke actually specifically states that it is a salutation. However, the earliest evidence for this alleged event comes 600 years afterward, in the second century after Christ. It says here that Jesus is the firstborn, prototokos, of Mary. So the protestant reformers like Luther and Zwingly, did they believe Mary was a perpetual Virgin and were they committed to Sola scriptura? I mean, because honestly I believe that all three do contradict all of them. Okay. Because if you look in Strongs Greek Exhaustive Concordance and how it is used in the New Testament, which is what the debate is about not extra biblical work, it is used consistently and only to describe biological siblings. No. Protestants disagree. Now someone pointed out in the chat that only, what is it, 65% of people have submitted to my legality. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. Dear catholic.com visitors: This website from Catholic Answers, with all its many resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. So we see here that messianic Psalms are often applied to Jesus in non-literal ways. They werent arguments that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made. So again, argument by exception. I would probably enjoy Clement of Rome, even though 1 Clement wasnt written by an individual, but rather there was a poly group of bishops in 1 Clement. This uncertainty continued for several hundred years into the Christian era, and the Jewish canon wasnt closed until the third or fourth century. Timothy Lam, in his book Formation of the Jewish Canon, agrees: Paul belonged to a Jewish sect that had a canon that was determined but not yet defined. Yet the presence of those exceptions doesnt disprove the nearly universal truth the sacred author was affirming. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. But lets have this be the last response to a response, because then Im going to ask Trent to question, then you are going to get to respond to that. God is Marys savior because he regarded her lowly state and shes been lifted out of it by being called to bring the Messiah into the world. For storing and sharing my Apologetic Infographics. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. [inaudible 01:23:43] This comes from supporter, Matt. Instead, we should listen to Christ, his apostles, and the Church they founded for the answer to what constitutes Sacred Scripture. As long the difference between Mariological title versus Christological title, thats probably where we would disagree, but go ahead. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. And so I would say if youre a Protestant, for Protestants and Catholics, if the Marian dogmas can occupy at least that place. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. Just want to offer an encouragement for those who are watching in the live chat or who watch this later. Prototokos, I dont have a problem with the term, meaning first out of the womb, but in Luke chapter two versus 22 to 23, this is a different event. The only son? Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. As I said before, these could be adoptive siblings. I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. The late twentieth-century Christian apologist Francis A. Schaeffer saw Christian apologetics as " pre-evangelism " - a way to prepare the mind and heart for the Christian message (the Gospel). We dont believe that is the case. You would expect there to be deviations from it. Sure. By contrast, some quoted Sirach as a book of Scripture, though it was eventually excluded. I believe hes referring to part of a declaration in [inaudible 01:35:47], the declaration about the immaculate conception made by the Pope in 1854, saying that the fathers had always believed this about Mary being immaculately conceived. Jesus does not rebuke her. But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. You just have to join locals in the same way youd have to join Twitter or Facebook to get access to it. Luke does use monogenes to talk about the death of ones only child, for example, in different parts of his gospel. So we could assume that they have the same biological mother and father. After an in-depth study of the writings of the Church Fathers, both Steve and his wife Janet converted to the Catholic Church. 16. Im not saying that Jesus is the son of Mary means that shes the only person he bore. Theres nothing in scripture that states that Mary was an exception to this. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. Steve Cable, April 18, 2022 Steve Cable explains how the apostle Peter showed himself to be a master apologist, not the bumbling, brash fisherman he used to be. From 2001 to 2003 he played for the San Diego Chargers, who, with the hire of former Bills GM John Butler, acquired several former Buffalo players. And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. Not just saying that because theyre paying me, although that definitely helps. But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. Yeah. Those are both problematic. And the other issue is a fact, is that even though a Pope would not be allowed to declare something that goes against what the magisterium teaches and the magisterium I doubt would ever teach about worshiping Mary, whats interesting is that according to Lumen Gentium, it says that even when the Pope is not speaking ex cathedral, you must actually listen to what the Pope says. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. Search. Steven is related to James P Christie and Helen J Christie as well as 1 additional person. Like for example, how does one reconcile the following statements, I am the way, the truth, and the life, from our blessed Lord in John 14:6 and Hail holy queen, mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope, emphasis on both claiming to be our life? Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? Yeah. It is because of my tremendous love and respect for the Mary of God [inaudible 01:48:45] Scripture, that I felt the responsibility to point out that the Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Mary of the Word of God. And the issue too, is it discusses the word ipsum as opposed to ipsa, when it says from Genesis 15, if she will bruise the heel, or his heel will be versed, however its actually worded. A concrete example of this would be sacrifice. A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. We see this in Luke 3:1, and if these siblings are Jesuss adoptive siblings from Josephs previous marriage, theres absolutely no contradiction here whatsoever. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Instead, these manuscripts contain the deuterocanonical books, and they correspond to the Church councils of this era such as Hippo and Carthage that also affirmed the inspiration of these books. So while not common, it is used. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. So for example, I think Steve is right that the use of the word [inaudible 01:43:59] in Luke 1:28 does not, in and of itself, prove the immaculate conception. First Corinthians 15 talks about heavenly bodies and that Mary is given Well, I think what Steve was saying here is that, okay, well, Mary had an earthy body. Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. This is not a commitment to lend. Did they believe Marys Well were out of time, so [inaudible 01:16:57]. I do. Brant Pitre has some great work on Mary as well for people to check out. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. Adelphos is not my issue. No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. Two individuals share the same biological mother and father? Well, the relevance is the fact that the word adelphos for brother, the primary meaning means a biological sibling, so unless theres a reason in the context of [inaudible 01:13:28]. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. So Ill send you a link, you could put that [inaudible 01:35:07] as well. So multi-part question here. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. Trent had mentioned about Mary and her Magnificat saying, God, my savior, and she was referring back to Hannah. He became sin for us. I dont think he could do that. So thats another one. So we have to read the context. There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. 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